Hyperbole is overused these days, but when the Financial Times calls someone a superstar, I’m apt to repeat the title, especially if the person in question is so humble that he insists his impact is “a mystery.”
Adam Grant is a Wharton School Professor and influential author. Lately he’s become a “superstar management thinker” according to the FT’s Andrew Hill. I had the pleasure of interviewing Adam last month about his new book Think Again, and his wise words have resonated with me ever since.
Last week I was invited to be a guest on the BBC World Service program, Business Matters. The London producers asked me if I had interviewed anyone interesting lately, so how could I resist sharing some of Adam’s insights?
But even superstars can be upstaged. This week’s podcast also features a rare appearance from my dear old dog, Mookie. Working from home is one thing, but broadcasting from home when it’s time for your dog’s walk, is a little risky! When BBC presenter Fergus Nicoll asked me about the idea of adding Covid border controls between states in America, Mookie couldn’t help but share his perspective. You can hear clearly: he’s not a fan!
I look forward to sharing more of Adam’s observations and research in my next podcast: on why kindness builds resilience, what Malcolm Gladwell taught him about writing books, and the upsides of anger and frustration. And who hasn’t experienced some frustration over this challenging last year? He even suggests we think again about Elon Musk. According to Adam, despite his tough manager reputation, Musk scores off the charts on one far-reaching measure of kindness.
Here are highlights of our BBC discussion:
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And here’s a transcript, edited for length and clarity:
Fergus Nicoll: On Business Matters, we talk to people who help us understand the way we should approach business, the way our workforce works most effectively, especially as we come out of the Coronavirus pandemic. Alison, you’ve been talking to someone who’s a bit of a management guru, who has a few pointers for us, in terms of management style?
Alison van Diggelen: I recently interviewed Wharton School Professor and “superstar management psychologist” Adam Grant. His latest book is called Think Again. He urges us to nurture more open minds. He has a clear recipe for how to identify our biases and blind spots, and become less dogmatic and more “scientific” in our decision making. He explains why he’s been called a “logic bully” and why we call need a Challenge Network.
Adam Grant: I think the first step is to catch yourself when you slip into preaching, prosecuting or politicking. So I think we’re all vulnerable to these mindsets. When you’re in preacher mode, you believe you’ve already found the truth and you’re just trying to proselytize it. When you’re in prosecutor mode, you’re trying to win an argument and prove your case. And if you stop there, you’re not going to do much rethinking because you’ve already decided that you’re right and everyone else is wrong.
And then in politician mode you’re trying to win the approval of an audience through campaigning and lobbying and you might tell them what they want to hear, but you’re probably not changing what you really think.
One of the things I find helpful is to ask myself: okay how much time did I spend in each of those modes today? And I catch myself regularly going into prosecutor mode when I think somebody is wrong. I just feel like it’s my moral responsibility as a social scientist to bring them sharper logic and stronger evidence. I’ve been called a logic bully. I start bombarding people with data and with reasons and they tend to either attack or withdraw, which doesn’t go well.
So shifting into science mode for me is about reminding myself to value of humility over pride, and curiosity over conviction. My goal is to not let my ideas become my identity. You don’t have to invest in a microscope or a telescope. You don’t have to walk around wearing a lab coat. Thinking like a scientist just means when you have an opinion or you have a piece of knowledge, recognize it’s just a hypothesis: it might be true (or) it might be false. And if you want to test it, that means you have to look for reasons why you might be wrong. Not just the reason why you must be right. You have to listen to ideas that make you think hard, not just the ones that make you feel good. And you have to surround yourself with people who challenge your thought process, not just ones who agree with your conclusions.
Alison van Diggelen: You frame it in terms of driver’s ed. We all have blind spots, and in our cars it’s fine: we can use our mirrors and sensors. So how do we recognize our cognitive blind spots and how do we rectify them?
Adam Grant: I think usually the best sensors and mirrors are other people. Most of us lean on our support network, the people who who cheer lead for us, who reassure us, who encourage us. But to see our blind spots, we need a challenge network, a group of thoughtful critics that we trust to tell us the things that we do not want to hear but we need to hear.
Listen to more of the BBC Program here: We get reaction to Adam’s ideas from Karen Lema, Bureau Chief for Reuters News Agency in Manilla, and discuss Artificial Intelligence, drones, as well as Biden’s inspiring action on Climate Change.
Check back soon at Fresh Dialogues to hear more from Adam Grant.
Why is Trump accusing China of hacking biotech companies, and threatening to ban TikTok? Smart policy or Red Scare tactics to distract us from his fatal response to the pandemic ?
Last month, Donald Trump finally started wearing a mask and doling out some good advice on Covid. Is it too little, too late?
I was invited to join the BBC World Service program Business Matters to discuss the latest reversal from the White House, as well as breaking business news and analysis.
“Trump only started wearing a mask last week, which is unconscionable. And he’s been spreading misinformation on the number of cases and cures…”
Here are highlights from my conversation with the BBC’s effervescent Rahul Tandon in London, and outspoken business advisor Simon Littlewood in Singapore. The transcript has been edited for length and clarity.
Rahul Tandon: Alison, where you are in Silicon Valley, this rising tension between China and the US… What do people make of it? Is there a lot of support for the president and Mike Pompeo’s strong stance?
Alison van Diggelen: This is a political move, this is distracting action from our president’s mess up of the response to the Covid virus. I applaud their call to come together to fight a common enemy. But they’re forgetting that the biggest threat humanity faces is Covid-19.
There is a race going on, it’s like a new space race to find a reliable vaccine. It’s even more intense than the space race: the first country to get there will get a humanitarian reward of saving lives and also an economic reward. There will be a massive reward by allowing a swift return to business as usual, and a huge boost in consumer confidence.
This Trump White House action is a distracting political move. It feels a bit like the Red Scare of the Cold War Era.
Simon Littlewood: I agree. That’s exactly what it is. I’d echo Alison’s comments. There clearly are serious domestic issues in the U.S. and the president would do well to concentrate on them.
Rahul Tandon: I want to come back to Alison: we’re talking about China trying to hack information when it comes to Coronavirus vaccines and treatments. That’s just like the old world of espionage. It’s something that’s always gone on and now we’re looking at the stakes in a new tech world?
Alison van Diggelen: That’s right. Last week’s Twitter hack showed that even tech companies in the heart of Silicon Valley, with some of the smartest minds in the world and savvy programmers, are not immune to cyber criminals. I think it’s very likely that Americans are doing the same in China. Every major super power is trying to hack in and see what the other countries are doing. It’s just like the space race.
Rahul Tandon: There we go. We have two of the finest minds in the world with us here on Business Matters today. (Thanks Rahul!)
Simon Littlewood: Hopefully un-hacked!
Rahul Tandon: I was very certain about Alison. But Simon, we’ll need to give you another 40 minutes to see how you perform during the rest of the program…
Trump: We’re asking Americans to wear a mask…imploring young Americans to avoid packed bars, and other indoor gatherings. Be safe and be smart.
Rahul Tandon: Are Americans being safe and smart? Are people wearing masks?
Alison van Diggelen: I’m holding my breath hearing the president. He only started wearing a mask last week, which is unconscionable. And he’s been spreading misinformation on the number of cases and cures.
I’m glad to hear that he’s finally pushing the right message –– congratulations to whoever persuaded him! But his White House has been undermining the clear scientific evidence from Anthony Fauci who’s probably the best qualified to educate the world on what needs to be done.
It’s a little late, but I’m glad he’s doing the right thing finally. I hope he uses his Twitter account to spread the right message: Wearing a mask is the most effective thing people can do, as well as sheltering at home and minimizing exposure to others.
We also discuss:
The Green Recovery: Fergus Nicoll’s interview with Tim Smith, the founder of the Eden Project about changing attitudes to nature, localism and the environment, as a result of the pandemic.
What can be done to tackle the growing problem of fake news during the coronavirus pandemic?
Last week, I was invited to join the BBC World Service program “Business Matters” to discuss business ethics and the trade war. To give a flavor of the Silicon Valley zeitgeist, I shared highlights of my interview with Scott Kupor, a prominent venture capitalist (VC), and author of the book, “Secrets of Sand Hill Road.”
On the never ending drama of the US/China trade war, I came up with an apt way of describing Trump’s strategy: “Like a bull in a China shop.” (Listen at 15:45 in the BBC podcast)
This view was bolstered, just four days later, when we saw the biggest drop in the Dow Jones all year, and experts blamed it on Trump’s escalation of trade tensions. Headlines like this one are now common: Have U.S. Tariffs backfired? I won’t be surprised if an impulsive tweet from Trump plunges the world economy into recession.
But meantime, here’s a transcript of my conversation with the BBC’s Fergus Nicoll and author Jasper Kim in Seoul. It’s been edited (and italicized) for length and clarity.
Fergus Nicoll: Silicon Valley has had its fair share of “fake it till you make it” stories, would-be billionaire entrepreneurs who talk a great game and acquire a loyal and admiring following, then they go bust and sometimes go to jail. And it’s not just the tech sector. It’s fair to say the chance of hearing unvarnished, unpartisan truth from any given politician might be lowish. Alison, who’ve you been discussing ethical behavior with?
Alison van Diggelen: I had a great discussion recently with VC Scott Kupor…We talked about Facebook’s mantra of “moving fast and breaking things” and he feels the rules are different for small startups which have limited impact. He calls them “the pirates.”
I asked him: Are you saying it’s OK to be a pirate in the early stages of a startup?
Scott Kupor: It depends on what pirate means (audience laughter).
Fraud and misleading people is clearly not right. But the idea that you might enter into a market where you’re not exactly sure what the product should look like, you might have a theory on what your regulatory structure is, but you’re not 100% sure.
[Photo credit:Sarah Gonzalez/Commonwealth Club]
I’ll give you a great example: we’re investors in Airbnb and Lyft. These companies probably couldn’t have been successful if they’d asked for permission every time they went into a new market. You could argue that was unethical: They should’ve got permission first. The reality is, they said: we’re going to go into a new market, we believe we have a defensible theory that why what we’re doing is appropriate from a regulatory perspective, but we also know we’re likely to get challenged on that. But over time, if a consumer utility is big enough, there is a way to deal with these issues. So that’s my definition of a pirate: I think that’s reasonable acceptable behavior. Fraud and misleading people is not acceptable behavior.
Alison van Diggelen: In order to create a startup that’s potentially going to change the world, you have to break some rules and the question is: which rules? You have to question the status quo. Theranos –– the blood testing company that famously imploded last year and the CEO has been charged with fraud –– is a great example of going too far, going to the dark side. One of the Theranos whistleblowers, Tyler Schulz, has started a nonprofit called Ethics in Entrepreneurship to teach ethics, get the basics down.
This is why I asked Scott Kupor about ethics. VCs work closely with startups (they often join their board of directors) and I wanted to hold his feet to the fire and say: You (and your colleagues) have a responsibility to make sure your entrepreneurs are thinking about ethics. It’s one thing to be a pirate in the early days, but at some point you have to grow up and be like the navy and play according to the rules and respect the nation’s laws.
Fergus Nicoll: Do you think these internal debates translate across Asia in terms of startups, Jasper? For example, startups in Vietnam saying: we think we’ve got a space in the market, but we’ll have to break the rules to get there, then grow…and then we’ll behave?
Jasper Kim: There are some minute cultural nuances, but similarities. If you look at Steve Jobs. His famous quote is:
“All the great ideas were stolen.”
If you look at Apple in the early days: they flew a pirate flag and were unabashed by the fact that they basically ripped off or stole ideas from here and there. The genius of it was connecting different technologies that existed before, like the touch screen, with ATM machines, like the wheel on the iPod, and use that to make genius products like the iPhone.
What is ethical? That’s a big question. Kupor’s defense is that it’s all for consumer utilitarianism, but there’s also the other side of what’s ethical and that’s Immanuel Kant, and his theory of Categorical Imperative. You have to have certain values as inputs, you shouldn’t just deal with outcomes to justify your behavior.
Of course, the trade war and piracy (of IP) are connected at the core, but that’s a discussion for another day…
The BBC program aired live on August 1, 2019 and my conversation with Scott Kupor took place in front of a live audience at the Commonwealth Club in Silicon Valley on June 10, 2019.
Perhaps you weren’t shocked by the college applications scandal that recently broke in the United States? I must confess, I was deeply upset because it reveals a low tide mark in our society’s ethics today and underlines the absence of integrity in so many people’s lives. But I’m also saddened because “Operation Varsity Blues” has wider implications for our colleges and our communities. Fresh Dialogues host, Alison van Diggelen reports for the BBC World Service.
(Photo credit above: Daniel Gaines Photography via Breakthrough Silicon Valley)
The stories of college applications doctored with photo-shopped pictures of athletes; blatant bribery and cheating on SAT scores made my blood boil. So I was delighted to have the opportunity to share my views on the BBC World Service.
These rich elites – venture capitalists, actors and prominent business people – confused their privilege for merit; and by cheating they crushed the hopes and dreams of the least fortunate and most deserving students in our communities.
The BBC’s Fergus Nicoll asked me about the reputation damage to schools and I shared an interview I did recently with former President of Stanford University, John Hennessy. At the time, he was outraged at colleges “debasing themselves” and forgetting their values in the pursuit of athletes over academics. Watch the video (@3:00): Hennessy is known for his tact, but here, his anger is palpable.
Previous commentators on the BBC program, including Stephanie Studer of the Economist in China, and Kay Hymowitz of the City Journal in New York, talked about the destruction of meritocracy. That’s definitely under threat, both here and around the world. But who’ll suffer most from this scandal?
The hard working students and families from less advantaged communities. Like the inspiring students at Breakthrough Silicon Valley, a nonprofit here in California, that works to mentor and nurture first generation immigrants to achieve their college dreams. For them, it’s a double whammy: First: The opportunity cost. For every rich kid who got into college through a side door, there’s a student who worked like a Trojan to get the scores necessary to win a place, and lost out. But it’s more than that: What will this scandal do to the aspirations of these students and families who feel that the playing fieldjust got even steeper? And more broadly, how will our communities suffer if these well deserving youth lose out on taking their shot at a better future? The opportunity cost is both acute and enduring, both personal and wide ranging.
Is it too much to hope that colleges and communities can return to decent values and bring ethics back from its long holiday?
We should all be outraged when such revered institutions fail our society by creating shortcuts for those with wealth and privilege when they could be a powerful force for equity in our society.
Certainly, the staff and students of Breakthrough Silicon Valley are frustrated. As Diana, a high school junior, put it, “I’m sad but not shocked. I’ve always known that there are people who play the system, it just hurts to have this out there when I’m working so hard to get my shot.”
For the past five years, my team has cheered Diana on as she works incredibly hard to get to college. She grew up in a family that grapples with the constant stress of financial instability. They got home internet access just last month, and few in her community have gone to college, but Diana is blazing an impressive path. She has a 4.29 GPA while enrolled in the most rigorous courses her district offers. She founded a community service club and helps facilitate Breakthrough’s after-school program for 7th graders. She is proud of her community service, her persistence, and her identity as a strong Mexican-American woman. Diana is not just “qualified” to attend college, she is ready to lead when she gets there.
When colleges reinforce class divisions through legacy admissions and bend to the will of deep pockets, they miss out on students like Diana. Read more here. (NB: Names have been changed to protect student privacy)
As dramatic images of the Texas floods pour in, it’s timely to ask: would a tech mindset help cities be more responsive and efficient in their disaster response? The concept of transforming the culture of a city hall by adopting a tech approach is what I’ve been exploring this month for the BBC World Service. How would an agile, innovative tech mindset help to fix problems and meet community needs more quickly? My report aired this week on Business Matters and fellow guest Duncan Clark, Chairman of BDA, shared his perspective from Beijing.
Alison van Diggelen reports from Silicon Valley, on how a tech mindset is helping transform San Jose’s City Hall.
“I’ve been really encouraged with how willing people are to try new things. We’re seeing a culture shift here at city hall, that is interested in learning about technology and process improvement and customer driven innovation,” Erica Garaffo, Data Analytics Lead at San Jose City Hall
Here’s a transcript of the segment, edited for length and clarity:
The BBC’s Fergus Nicoll: We’ve been talking about urban management and weather. Time now to talk about simple urban management in the context of cities that aren’t content to wait for federal infrastructure investment. Alison’s been investigating this in San Jose, in the heart of Silicon Valley…
Alison van Diggelen: Some city managers are not holding their breath with the current administration in D.C. The Trump administration is behind on all major promises (infrastructure investment, tax reform etc.); so, here in San Jose, they’re adopting a tech approach to make City Hall more efficient, accessible and responsive to community needs like flooding. San Jose is leveraging its location in the heart of Silicon Valley to lead the charge. I’ve been exploring their game plan and I started by visiting Diridon Station, the main transport hub in San Jose’s city center, to find out from the locals what they think of the city.
[Atmos: Train, plane, bus traffic in downtown San Jose]
Glen Abbott: What public works you see being done are extensive street modifications and drainage that go on and on and on and never seem to reach completion! Somebody is buttering somebody else’s toast…
Chelsea Conrad: There’s a lot of graffiti and trash I’ve noticed…I think it should be cleaned up…It’s kind of an eyesore…
Alison van Diggelen: Meet Kip Harkness. He’s deputy city manager of San Jose, the self described “Capital of Silicon Valley.” Harkness dresses a la Steve Jobs in black turtleneck and blue jeans. A former Director at PayPal; today he wants to bring innovation and the “speed of business” to civic life in San Jose. With the enthusiasm of a tech evangelist, he demos the city’s latest release on his smartphone: It’s an app called “My San Jose”
Kip Harkness:Here we are at City Hall – you can see the pinpoints that are requests…you can see illegal dumping. Lots of illegal dumping!
Kip Harkness:It’s excites me. Now we know what the issues are. About 10,000 people have already downloaded the app…
Alison van Diggelen: He’s assembling what he calls “a tribe of innovators” to transform City Hall.
Kip Harkness:So we found some graffiti…it asks me if I want to take a picture. It confirms the location. Done, submitted, reference request is in there. Hopefully over the course of the day it will be processed in the system and that status will be updated.
[Atmos: scrum meeting discussion with Michelle Thong…laughter…]
Alison van Diggelen: I meet his “tribe” on the 17th floor of City Hall just before their daily “scrum” – a 15 minute standup meeting. Participants move sticky notes across a giant board to show the progress of their projects. An entire wall becomes a super-sized multicolored spreadsheet. Harkness enthuses about the nimble goal-setting approach and team peer pressure which speeds up action…
Kip Harkness:Championing the customer, learning from data and iterating to improve set apart the tribe. In typical government you do it all at once and push it out the door. We have a scrum cycle – a 2 week process, we reset goals, we evaluate how well we did. Every day we check in on our progress. Running government on scrum, as agile, is a completely different mindset from the traditional 5-7 years plans that characterize our history.
Alison van Diggelen: Erica Garaffo leads the team’s data analytics. She says her background in industrial engineering taught her about process improvement and ways to streamline business operations. She’s finding that can make big difference in delivering community services.
Alison van Diggelen: Would you say you “think different”?
Erica Garaffo: Yes! [laughter] Having the data lens affords me interesting perspective… from data we can see patterns, get insights, and we can take action… I’ve been really encouraged with how willing people are to try new things. We’re seeing a culture shift here at city hall, that is interested in learning about technology and process improvement and customer driven innovation…
Alison van Diggelen: San Jose’s Mayor, Sam Liccardo is helping drive this tech-centered approach.
Mayor Liccardo: We’re blessed to serve a community that’s the most innovative in the world…We’ve tried to create a platform here in the city for innovation – from great companies all around us, from our budding entrepreneurs. We’ve got a program called “Unleash your Geek” that’s got hundreds of folks from San Jose State University and others coming up with ideas to help us solve civic problems.
Alison van Diggelen: The City is partnering with Facebook to launch “Terragraph” in downtown San Jose – a new wireless internet system they say will offer the “fastest free wifi in the world.” It’s also partnering with a dozen tech companies to launch an autonomous vehicle pilot program on city streets.
Of course, San Jose is not unique in adopting a tech mindset. Many global cities are getting techie, from London to Singapore, and Berlin to Nairobi. But as Harkness point out, San Jose has a huge comparative advantage:
Kip Harkness: Literally down the street we have Adobe, the Paypal HQ, Cisco HQ in San Jose…Intel, Apple, Facebook, Google all within 30 miles of our city hall building. We can open up and chunk out our problems to all these tech companies and create a living laboratory for them try out new approaches, new tech and for us to learn from that secret sauce of Silicon Valley.
Fergus Nicoll: Great piece Alison. We’ve got some new expressions for you today: “running government on scrum;” “chunking out programs”… Is this going to work in China, Duncan?
Duncan Clark: China has a top down belief in technology. A lot of the senior officials are engineers themselves…sometimes they place too much emphasis on this. The key factor is the people in China are embracing technology, particularly through their smartphones. One example would be these Mobikes….where you can hop on a bike anywhere in Beijing or Shanghai or across the country. These are dockless bikes, so you don’t have to return them as you would in New York, London or Paris. You leave them anywhere, they have a GPS, and that’s contributing to a reduction in traffic… This is the private sector: Alibaba and Tencent are backing companies like these. The government also is also very on the ball on tech…
Continue listening to the BBC’s Business Matters program, as we discuss:
The potential benefits and synergies from the Whole Foods-Amazon merger
The Hyperloop: why it’s a crazy idea; and yet why it’s unwise to under-estimate Elon Musk’s latest brainchild.
